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RE: [registrars] Canceling Renewals?
Michael,
I have no idea what it would cost. I do know though that making changes to
a system that handles over 7 million transactions a day is not simply a
matter of adding a few sub routines.
Chuck
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Brody [mailto:mbrody@tldsystems.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 3:29 AM
To: Gomes, Chuck
Cc: 'Bhavin Turakhia'; tim@godaddy.com; 'Patricio Valdes';
registrars@dnso.org
Subject: RE: [registrars] Canceling Renewals?
I do not understand how such a refund system could be costly to implement.
There is already a system in place that on days 1 - 5 the name can be
deleted and a refund is generated. I am sure that the system checks at
the time of a deletion whether the domain is in the 5 day window and then
processes the refund. To add in sub routines that say if the date is
between 5 and 30 days credit registrar $5 and if date is between 31 and 60
days credit registrar $4...
So if you could please explain to me why you feel the cost of implementing
the system would cause an overhead cost of more than $1 or $2 I would love
to understand. On the other hand if you are telling me that the loss of
income from domains deleted in the first 60 days would put a financial
strain on the registry I would like to understand the dynamics of that
also.
You see I am new to this group and am still learning how everything works
so please educate me.
Michael
@com Technology LLC
On Sun, 23 Feb 2003, Gomes, Chuck wrote:
> Bhavin,
>
> I will certainly bounce your ideas off of others here. I fear that the
cost
> of implementing such a refund system would cost more than $1 or $2 per
name
> but I will certainly get some opinions.
>
> Chuck
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bhavin Turakhia [mailto:bhavin.t@directi.com]
> Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 12:17 AM
> To: 'Gomes, Chuck'; tim@godaddy.com; 'Patricio Valdes';
> registrars@dnso.org
> Subject: RE: [registrars] Canceling Renewals?
>
>
> Hi chuck,
>
> Your points are valid. However this still does not help on counts of
> fraud where the registrant has registered a large number of single year
> domains in one order and paid for them with a fraudulent card. Almost
> all registrar interfaces allow check availability on multiple options in
> the ordering process. It is quit common for fraudsters to slect 3-6
> doamin names at a time and register them all for 1 year, thus making us
> lose the equivalent of 6 years of selling price plus a hefty $25
> chargeback processing fee if that transaction is discovered to be
> fraudulent after 5 days. And it is quite difficult (next to imposible)
> to verify every transaction within a 5 day period.
>
> On the other hand you could have a policy like this -
>
> * if a domain is deleted within 5 days of registration/renewal/trfer -
> refund all the money to the registrar
> * if a domain is deleted after 5 days but within 30 days, refund the
> registration fees, but charge the registrar a minor amount like $1 for
> the deletion (to prevent gaming of the system)
> * if a domain is deleted after 30 days but within 60 days, refund the
> registration fees, but charge the registrar a minor amount like $2 for
> the deletion (to prevent gaming of the system)
>
> That is adequate to allow us to check transactions
>
> This would ensure that even those who are simply stretching their
> domains to 60 days end up paying a $2, and so there is really no gaming
> possibility since there is a cost associated with it. Additionally,
> while verisign has to make an entry in the registry for that 1-2 months
> - it is getting paid for that entry on a twice than normal rate
>
> Bhavin
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-registrars@dnso.org
> > [mailto:owner-registrars@dnso.org] On Behalf Of Gomes, Chuck
> > Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 4:17 AM
> > To: Bhavin Turakhia; tim@godaddy.com; 'Patricio Valdes';
> > 'Gomes, Chuck'; registrars@dnso.org
> > Subject: RE: [registrars] Canceling Renewals?
> >
> >
> > Bhavin,
> >
> > In my opinion, the key to managing customer expectations is
> > to communicate clearly up front what will happen if they want
> > a multiyear registration. If it is made clear at the point
> > of purchase that a registrar will only register the name for
> > one year until credit checks are completed, then registrants
> > should know what to expect. Consumers are not unfamiliar
> > with the need for credit checks so this should not be that
> > big of an issue. With regard to registrars who would not
> > adopt such an approach, that would be a conscious business
> > decision on their part. If they are willing to assume the
> > additional risk, they should be able to do that.
> >
> > Chuck
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Bhavin Turakhia [mailto:bhavin.t@directi.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 9:52 AM
> > To: tim@godaddy.com; 'Patricio Valdes'; 'Gomes, Chuck';
> > registrars@dnso.org
> > Subject: RE: [registrars] Canceling Renewals?
> >
> >
> > Hi tim,
> >
> > The issue is
> >
> > 1. it does NOT take 60 days to obtain payment from the bank.
> > That happens immediately. It takes 60 days to verify if the
> > transaction is fraudulent or not (because im assuming most
> > chargebacks occur in 60
> > days)
> >
> > 2. genuine customers will perceive this as a service lag.
> > They would rather do business with a registrar then who will
> > credit them immediately for the domain years. If they have
> > bought a 5 year name, they want a 5 year name. Why should
> > they have to bother to check again after 60 days and remember
> > that their registrar is supposed to add 4 more years to the
> > registration. What if the registrar does not add those 4
> > years. It would remain as a thought with the customer.
> >
> > 3. despite informing customers, I know that most customers
> > generally do not read a barrage of emails that they get and
> > will still go and check the whois and then call technical
> > support as to why their expiry date is showing only 1 year
> > when they paid for 5
> >
> > 4. the method you are suggesting is something customers are
> > not used to and it will take a large amount of time for this
> > information to spread (assuming this practice is adopted by
> > all registrars)
> >
> > 5. the issue with this method is there will always be a
> > faction of registrars who will adopt it and a faction who
> > will not, creating further confusion amongst customers,
> > whereby customers will argue with a registrar as to why they
> > follow this type of a practice when other registrars do not.
> > Additionally since there will not be universal adoption it
> > will result in confusion and lack of a common standard
> >
> > 6. you must agree that if a solution which DOES NOT penalise
> > the genuine customers, and yet at the same time allows
> > protection to the registrars (without allowing any gaming)
> > exists, then it makes more sense to adopt that as a long term
> > feasible solution
> >
> > Bhavin
> >
> > PS: ummm in the end - are you against getting a refund for
> > deleted names which are fraudulently registered :) ..... Cuz
> > im sure you have to battle CC fraud yourself
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Tim Ruiz [mailto:tim@godaddy.com]
> > > Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 8:14 PM
> > > To: Patricio Valdes; Gomes, Chuck; 'Bhavin Turakhia';
> > > registrars@dnso.org
> > > Subject: RE: [registrars] Canceling Renewals?
> > >
> > >
> > > I think Chuck is making a reasonable suggestion here.
> > >
> > > Explain to the customer that the first year will be applied
> > > immediately, the other years will be added once the payment
> > > has cleared or processed with their bank or credit card
> > > company, which usually takes 60 days.
> > >
> > > That could be clearly presented during the renewal process,
> > > registration agreement, terms of service, etc.
> > >
> > > That should also alleviate most concerns about discrepancies
> > > between the registrar and registry expiration dates.
> > >
> > > Tim
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: owner-registrars@dnso.org [mailto:owner-registrars@dnso.org]On
> > > Behalf Of Patricio Valdes
> > > Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 8:32 AM
> > > To: Gomes, Chuck; 'Bhavin Turakhia'; registrars@dnso.org
> > > Subject: RE: [registrars] Canceling Renewals?
> > >
> > >
> > > Chuck,
> > >
> > >
> > > If a registrar does not have confidence that its procedures
> > > are not yet solid enough to prevent erroneous extensions or
> > > to prevent fraudulent new registrations, then it might be a
> > > good idea to simply handle multi-year registrations in this
> > > manner: 1) initially register or renew a name for only one
> > > year with VGRS; 2) during the first 60 days or so of the
> > > new/renewed registration period, perform internal quality
> > > checks and apply fraud management techniques; 3) if internal
> > > quality checks and fraud investigation yield positive
> > > results, then extend the name for multiple years.
> > >
> > >
> > > ----This used to be a good idea, but like I mentioned in a
> > > previous thread, this can no longer be done after Verisign
> > > decided to show full expiration date on Whois.
> > >
> > > Again, who's the only one winning here? Why did they do it in
> > > the first place? Beats me, I really do not know who benefits
> > > from showing expiration date on Internic's whois, except
> > > Verisign and Hackers who register using fraudalent credit
> > > cards to register domains.
> > >
> > > Patricio Valdes
> > > Parava Networks
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Bhavin Turakhia [mailto:bhavin.t@directi.com]
> > > Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 2:34 AM
> > > To: 'Patricio Valdes'; registrars@dnso.org
> > > Cc: 'Gomes, Chuck'
> > > Subject: RE: [registrars] Canceling Renewals?
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi there,
> > >
> > > This is inkeeping partially with what we asked chuck. Your
> > > observation is an important one too. Verisign unfortunately
> > > has no way to credit you for years both in a renewal, or a
> > > new registration. Both of these are important from the
> > > perspective of registrars doing business. We deal in web
> > > services other than domain names and when any customer of
> > > ours renews their web hosting package by mistake for 4 years
> > > and wants to convert it to 1 year we refund them the money
> > > for 3 years.
> > >
> > > Additionally what we were requesting chuck gomes was the
> > > ability to delete a name and obtain a refund for the lattter
> > > years. Ie if we delete a 5 year domin (after the grace
> > > period) we should get refund for 4 years considering the
> > > registry can sell that name - it is now in the available
> > > pool. This is imperative to reduce our risk exposure in
> > > credit card fraud where fraudsters register domain names for
> > > 5-10 years and we cannot discover the fraud until a month
> > > later. We end up losing more money in a single fraud than
> > > what we make on selling a 100 domains
> > >
> > > bhavin
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: owner-registrars@dnso.org
> > > [mailto:owner-registrars@dnso.org] On
> > > > Behalf Of Patricio
> > > Valdes
> > > > Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 3:24 AM
> > > > To: registrars@dnso.org
> > > > Subject: [registrars] Canceling Renewals?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > To all Registrars;
> > > >
> > > > Im sure we are not the only Registrar out there that has had this
> > > > happen to, we accidentally renewed 30 domain names for a
> > > client for 4
> > > > years instead of 1. Verisign is telling us there is no way
> > > of getting
> > > > these Credits back or remove years to these names.
> > > >
> > > > I really think this is way beyond ridiculous!
> > > >
> > > > At this point we are really considering giving up being a
> > > Registrar,
> > > > the only people here winning are the Registry
> > > > (Verisign) and a few big Registrars.
> > > >
> > > > ICANN has done nothing to help smaller Registrars or to booster
> > > > competition and it is nothing new that almost everything it
> > > does goes
> > > > to support Network Solutions and Verisign.
> > > >
> > > > We never get involved in the discussions because we barely
> > > have time
> > > > to run the business, now we are regretting it.
> > > >
> > > > How the hell did something like the Redemption Period and
> > > $85 charge
> > > > get approved? Sure as hell beats me.
> > > >
> > > > If anyone knows of a buyer please let us know, we are
> > really fed up
> > > > with ICANN, Verisign and Network Solutions controlling this
> > > business.
> > > >
> > > > Anyone has any job openings?
> > > >
> > > > Patricio Valdes
> > > > Parava Networks
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
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