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Re: [ga] Re: Even Handed Application of The Rules (Yes or No? - We shall see) (was Re: [ga] Posting rights of Jeff Williams suspended for 14 days).
For your information, my message to the powers that be regarding the infraction that
I discovered was met with deafening silence. Do you realize that when you behave
in the hypocritical way, that you loose all credibility. Why haven't my concerns been
addressed by the list moderator?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Brown" <donbrown_l@inetconcepts.net>
To: <owner-ga@dnso.org>; "Stephane Bortzmeyer" <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
Cc: "Joop Teernstra" <terastra@terabytz.co.nz>; <ga@dnso.org>
Sent: Friday, May 09, 2003 10:17
Subject: Re: [ga] Re: Even Handed Application of The Rules (Yes or No? - We shall see) (was Re: [ga] Posting rights of Jeff Williams
suspended for 14 days).
> Take note that this process narrowly applies to a DoS of the consensus
> building process. That's very different from censorship.
>
> Are you saying that Jim Fleming is guilty of such an infraction WRT
> the GA list (if so, I disagree) or are you just, again, preaching your
> personal prospective that Jim Fleming is a jerk?
>
>
> Note that the "group" "votes" on the actions.
>
>
> Wednesday, May 7, 2003, 3:36:12 AM, Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr> wrote:
> SB> On Wed, May 07, 2003 at 11:05:02AM +1200,
> SB> Joop Teernstra <terastra@terabytz.co.nz> wrote
> SB> a message of 26 lines which said:
>
> >> BTW, as a matter of interest, a poll among icannatlarge listmembers
> >> revealed that more than 63% are in favor of a mailing list with Rules.
> >> The comments are of interest.
> >> http://www.icannatlarge.com/results-may4a.htm
>
> SB> It may be interesting also to read the attached Internet-Draft which
> SB> is proposed to the IETF (background: anyone can write an
> SB> Internet-Draft, as its name suggest, they have no official value) to
> SB> deal with jerks. Since some are common to the IETF and to the GA
> SB> mailing list (Jim Fleming...), it is interesting reading:
>
>
> SB> Network Working Group M. Rose
> SB> Internet-Draft Dover Beach Consulting, Inc.
> SB> Expires: November 2, 2003 May 4, 2003
>
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> SB> A Practice for Revoking Posting Rights to IETF mailing lists
> SB> draft-mrose-ietf-posting-02
>
> SB> Status of this Memo
>
> SB> This document is an Internet-Draft and is in full conformance with
> SB> all provisions of Section 10 of RFC2026.
>
> SB> Internet-Drafts are working documents of the Internet Engineering
> SB> Task Force (IETF), its areas, and its working groups. Note that other
> SB> groups may also distribute working documents as Internet-Drafts.
>
> SB> Internet-Drafts are draft documents valid for a maximum of six months
> SB> and may be updated, replaced, or obsoleted by other documents at any
> SB> time. It is inappropriate to use Internet-Drafts as reference
> SB> material or to cite them other than as "work in progress."
>
> SB> The list of current Internet-Drafts can be accessed at http://
> SB> www.ietf.org/ietf/1id-abstracts.txt.
>
> SB> The list of Internet-Draft Shadow Directories can be accessed at
> SB> http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html.
>
> SB> This Internet-Draft will expire on November 2, 2003.
>
> SB> Copyright Notice
>
> SB> Copyright (C) The Internet Society (2003). All Rights Reserved.
>
> SB> Abstract
>
> SB> All self-governing bodies have ways of managing the scope of
> SB> participant interaction. The IETF uses a consensus-driven process for
> SB> developing computer-communications standards in an open fashion. An
> SB> important part of this consensus-driven process is the pervasive use
> SB> of mailing lists for discussion. Notably, in a small number of cases,
> SB> a participant has engaged in a "denial-of-service" attack to disrupt
> SB> the consensus-driven process. Regrettably, as these bad faith attacks
> SB> become more common, the IETF needs to establish a practice that
> SB> reduces or eliminates these attacks. This memo recommends such a
> SB> practice for use by the IETF.
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> SB> Rose Expires November 2, 2003 [Page 1]
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> SB> Internet-Draft Revocation Practice: IETF Mailing Lists May 2003
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> SB> Table of Contents
>
> SB> 1. Introduction . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
> SB> 2. A Revocation Practice . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4
> SB> 3. Q & A . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6
> SB> 4. Acknowledgements . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8
> SB> 5. Security Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9
> SB> Normative References . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10
> SB> Author's Address . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10
> SB> Intellectual Property and Copyright Statements . . . . . . . . 11
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> SB> Rose Expires November 2, 2003 [Page 2]
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> SB> Internet-Draft Revocation Practice: IETF Mailing Lists May 2003
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> SB> 1. Introduction
>
> SB> All self-governing bodies have ways of managing the scope of
> SB> participant interaction. For example, deliberative assemblies often
> SB> employ "rules of order" for determining who gets to speak, when, and
> SB> for how long. Similarly, there is widespread agreement in so-called
> SB> "liberal" societies that the right to free speech is not absolute,
> SB> e.g., political speech is given more leeway than commercial speech,
> SB> and some forms of speech (e.g., egregious libel or incitement to
> SB> violence) are considered unacceptable.
>
> SB> The IETF uses a consensus-driven process for developing
> SB> computer-communications standards in an open fashion. An important
> SB> part of this consensus-driven process is the pervasive use of mailing
> SB> lists for discussion. Unlike many other organizations, anyone may
> SB> post messages on those IETF mailing lists, and in doing so,
> SB> participate in the IETF process. Historically, this approach has
> SB> worked very well in the IETF, as it fosters participation from a wide
> SB> range of stakeholders.
>
> SB> Notably, in a small number of cases, a participant has engaged in a
> SB> "denial-of-service" attack to disrupt the consensus-driven process.
> SB> Typically, these attacks are made by repeatedly posting messages that
> SB> are off-topic, inflammatory, or otherwise counter-productive. In
> SB> contrast, good faith disagreement is a healthy part of the
> SB> consensus-driven process.
>
> SB> For example, if a working group is unable to reach consensus, this is
> SB> an acceptable, albeit unfortunate, outcome; however, if that working
> SB> group fails to achieve consensus because it is being continuously
> SB> disrupted, then the disruption constitutes an abuse of the
> SB> consensus-driven process. Interactions of this type are fundamentally
> SB> different from "the lone voice of dissent" in which a participant
> SB> expresses a view that is discussed but does not achieve consensus. In
> SB> other words, individual bad faith should not trump community
> SB> goodwill.
>
> SB> Guidelines have been developed for dealing with abusive behavior
> SB> (c.f., Section 6.1 of [1] and [2]). In practice, the application of
> SB> those guidelines has included the temporary suspension of posting
> SB> rights to a specific mailing list. If necessary, the length of the
> SB> suspension has been increased with each successive suspension. In
> SB> many cases, applying those guidelines will produce the desired
> SB> modification in behaviour. However, as these bad faith attacks become
> SB> more common and the desired modification in behaviour fails to be
> SB> forthcoming, the IETF needs to establish a practice that directly
> SB> reduces or eliminates these attacks.
>
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> SB> Rose Expires November 2, 2003 [Page 3]
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> SB> Internet-Draft Revocation Practice: IETF Mailing Lists May 2003
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> SB> 2. A Revocation Practice
>
> SB> Please refer to [3] for the meaning conveyed by the uppercase words
> SB> in this section.
>
> SB> As a part of its activities, the Internet Engineering Steering Group
> SB> (IESG) votes on "actions". Typically, an action refers to the
> SB> publication of a document on the standards-track, the chartering of a
> SB> working group, and so on. This memo recommends that the IESG also
> SB> undertake a new type of action, termed a PR-action.
>
> SB> A PR-action identifies one or more individuals, citing messages
> SB> posted by those individuals to an IETF mailing list, that appear to
> SB> be abusive of the consensus-driven process. If approved by the IESG,
> SB> then:
>
> SB> o those identified on the PR-action have their posting rights to
> SB> that IETF mailing list removed; and,
>
> SB> o maintainers of any IETF mailing list may, at their discretion,
> SB> also remove posting rights to that IETF mailing list.
>
> SB> Once taken, this action remains in force until explicitly nullified
> SB> and MUST remain in force for at least one year.
>
> SB> One year after the PR-action is approved, a new PR-action MAY be
> SB> introduced which restores the posting rights for that individual. The
> SB> IESG SHOULD consider the frequency of nullifying requests when
> SB> evaluating a new PR-action. If the posting rights are restored the
> SB> individual is responsible for contacting the owners of the mailing
> SB> lists to have them restored.
>
> SB> Regardless of whether the PR-action revokes or restores posting
> SB> rights, the IESG follows the same algorithm as with its other
> SB> actions:
>
> SB> 1. it is introduced by an IESG Area Director (AD), who, prior to
> SB> doing so, may choose to inform the interested parties;
>
> SB> 2. is is published as an IESG last call on the IETF general
> SB> discussion list;
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> SB> 3. it is discussed by the community;
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> SB> 4. it is discussed by the IESG; and, finally,
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> SB> 5. it is voted upon by the IESG.
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> SB> Rose Expires November 2, 2003 [Page 4]
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> SB> Internet-Draft Revocation Practice: IETF Mailing Lists May 2003
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> SB> Of course, as with all IESG actions, the appeals process outlined in
> SB> [4] may be invoked to contest a PR-action approved by the IESG.
>
> SB> Finally, working groups SHOULD ensure that their associated mailing
> SB> list is manageable. For example, some may try to circumvent the
> SB> revocation of their posting rights by changing email addresses.
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> SB> Rose Expires November 2, 2003 [Page 5]
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> SB> Internet-Draft Revocation Practice: IETF Mailing Lists May 2003
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> SB> 3. Q & A
>
> SB> Q: Isn't a year too long?
>
> SB> A: No.
>
> SB> An initial PR-action is not undertaken lightly. It is approved
> SB> only after a period of substantive consideration and community
> SB> review. If a PR-action is approved, then this indicates that a
> SB> serious situation has arisen.
>
> SB> Q: Why not require one PR-action per IETF mailing list?
>
> SB> A: To do so would enable a prolonged series of denial-of-service
> SB> attacks.
>
> SB> If someone is poorly-behaved on one IETF mailing list, but
> SB> well-behaved on another, then the maintainer for the second IETF
> SB> mailing list needn't revoke posting rights. However, the more
> SB> likely scenario is that someone who behaves poorly on one IETF
> SB> mailing list is unwilling to be well-behaved on any IETF mailing
> SB> list.
>
> SB> Q: Should the initiation of a PR-action come from outside the IESG?
>
> SB> A: Informally, sure; formally, no.
>
> SB> Under the IETF's consensus-driven process, IESG actions are always
> SB> formally initiated by an IESG Area Director (AD). In practice, the
> SB> motivation for an IESG member to initiate an action almost always
> SB> comes from outside the IESG. For example, when a working group
> SB> (WG) reaches consensus on a document, the WG chair informs the
> SB> relevant AD that the document is ready for the AD to consider it
> SB> for a document action. In the case of this document -- an IETF
> SB> individual submission -- the author will iteratively circulate the
> SB> document for wide discussion and make revisions. At some point,
> SB> the author will contact an AD and ask for a document action to
> SB> publish this document as a Best Current Practice (BCP).
>
> SB> Q: Is this censorship?
>
> SB> A: Only if you believe in anarchy.
>
> SB> What is important is that the rules surrounding PR-actions exhibit
> SB> the same properties used by the rest of the consensus-based
> SB> process.
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> SB> Rose Expires November 2, 2003 [Page 6]
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> SB> Internet-Draft Revocation Practice: IETF Mailing Lists May 2003
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> SB> Q: C'mon! You really are a closet fascist.
>
> SB> A: No, I'm a libertarian.
>
> SB> Frankly, I would prefer that people behave reasonably and act in
> SB> good faith. Since my first involvement with the IETF (nee GADS,
> SB> circa 1983), everyone understood that reasonable behavior was a
> SB> good thing. After 20 years, I regret to inform you that this step
> SB> is inevitable.
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> SB> Rose Expires November 2, 2003 [Page 7]
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> SB> Internet-Draft Revocation Practice: IETF Mailing Lists May 2003
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> SB> 4. Acknowledgements
>
> SB> The author gratefully acknowledges the contributions of: Brian
> SB> Carpenter, Jim Galvin, Jeff Haas, and Bert Wijnen.
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> SB> Rose Expires November 2, 2003 [Page 8]
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> SB> Internet-Draft Revocation Practice: IETF Mailing Lists May 2003
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> SB> 5. Security Considerations
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> SB> This memo deals with matters of process, not protocol.
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> SB> Rose Expires November 2, 2003 [Page 9]
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> SB> Internet-Draft Revocation Practice: IETF Mailing Lists May 2003
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> SB> Normative References
>
> SB> [1] Bradner, S., "IETF Working Group Guidelines and Procedures", BCP
> SB> 25, RFC 2418, September 1998.
>
> SB> [2] Harris, S., "IETF Discussion List Charter", BCP 45, RFC 3005,
> SB> November 2000.
>
> SB> [3] Bradner, S., "Key words for use in RFCs to Indicate Requirement
> SB> Levels", BCP 14, RFC 2119, March 1997.
>
> SB> [4] Bradner, S., "The Internet Standards Process -- Revision 3", BCP
> SB> 9, RFC 2026, October 1996.
>
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> SB> Author's Address
>
> SB> Marshall T. Rose
> SB> Dover Beach Consulting, Inc.
> SB> POB 255268
> SB> Sacramento, CA 95865-5268
> SB> US
>
> SB> Phone: +1 916 483 8878
> SB> EMail: mrose@dbc.mtview.ca.us
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> SB> Rose Expires November 2, 2003 [Page 10]
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> SB> Internet-Draft Revocation Practice: IETF Mailing Lists May 2003
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> SB> Intellectual Property Statement
>
> SB> The IETF takes no position regarding the validity or scope of any
> SB> intellectual property or other rights that might be claimed to
> SB> pertain to the implementation or use of the technology described in
> SB> this document or the extent to which any license under such rights
> SB> might or might not be available; neither does it represent that it
> SB> has made any effort to identify any such rights. Information on the
> SB> IETF's procedures with respect to rights in standards-track and
> SB> standards-related documentation can be found in BCP-11. Copies of
> SB> claims of rights made available for publication and any assurances of
> SB> licenses to be made available, or the result of an attempt made to
> SB> obtain a general license or permission for the use of such
> SB> proprietary rights by implementors or users of this specification can
> SB> be obtained from the IETF Secretariat.
>
> SB> The IETF invites any interested party to bring to its attention any
> SB> copyrights, patents or patent applications, or other proprietary
> SB> rights which may cover technology that may be required to practice
> SB> this standard. Please address the information to the IETF Executive
> SB> Director.
>
>
> SB> Full Copyright Statement
>
> SB> Copyright (C) The Internet Society (2003). All Rights Reserved.
>
> SB> This document and translations of it may be copied and furnished to
> SB> others, and derivative works that comment on or otherwise explain it
> SB> or assist in its implementation may be prepared, copied, published
> SB> and distributed, in whole or in part, without restriction of any
> SB> kind, provided that the above copyright notice and this paragraph are
> SB> included on all such copies and derivative works. However, this
> SB> document itself may not be modified in any way, such as by removing
> SB> the copyright notice or references to the Internet Society or other
> SB> Internet organizations, except as needed for the purpose of
> SB> developing Internet standards in which case the procedures for
> SB> copyrights defined in the Internet Standards process must be
> SB> followed, or as required to translate it into languages other than
> SB> English.
>
> SB> The limited permissions granted above are perpetual and will not be
> SB> revoked by the Internet Society or its successors or assignees.
>
> SB> This document and the information contained herein is provided on an
> SB> "AS IS" basis and THE INTERNET SOCIETY AND THE INTERNET ENGINEERING
> SB> TASK FORCE DISCLAIMS ALL WARRANTIES, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING
> SB> BUT NOT LIMITED TO ANY WARRANTY THAT THE USE OF THE INFORMATION
>
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> SB> Rose Expires November 2, 2003 [Page 11]
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> SB> Internet-Draft Revocation Practice: IETF Mailing Lists May 2003
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> SB> HEREIN WILL NOT INFRINGE ANY RIGHTS OR ANY IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF
> SB> MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.
>
>
> SB> Acknowledgement
>
> SB> Funding for the RFC Editor function is currently provided by the
> SB> Internet Society.
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> SB> Rose Expires November 2, 2003 [Page 12]
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> SB> --
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>
>
> ----
> Don Brown - Dallas, Texas USA Internet Concepts, Inc.
> donbrown_l@inetconcepts.net http://www.inetconcepts.net
> PGP Key ID: 04C99A55 (972) 788-2364 Fax: (972) 788-5049
> Providing Internet Solutions Worldwide - An eDataWeb Affiliate
> ----
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