Re: [ga] Proposal for mailing list policy

[Jeff Williams <jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com>]

Ramesh and all,

  You show good judgment here in your remarks Ramesh.  Good for you!
Keep lurking or actively participate.  You voice and ideas are sorely needed
here as I am sure you can tell.

Ramesh Kumar Nadarajah wrote:

> For a long time now, I have been a lurker as I saw nothing in the GA
> discussion list worth commenting on - just discussions going round and round
> on censorship versus free speech. But with all the noise, I did learn quite
> a bit about the personalities that post frequently and who makes sense (at
> least to me) and who doesn't - now I at least know who to vote or not vote
> for the next time around! I also learned that the noise sometimes has value
> as it teaches you so much about opposing viewpoints.
>
> What I'm trying to say is that I agree with Karl Auerbach - we can use
> filters if we want to. A censored discussion is pointless. If you think
> someone is making noise, and the filters won't keep him out, ignore him and
> focus on the real issues that the GA should be addressing.
>
> - ramesh -
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Karl Auerbach <karl@CaveBear.com>
> To: <ga@dnso.org>
> Sent: Friday, January 14, 2000 5:08 AM
> Subject: Re: [ga] Proposal for mailing list policy
>
> > >  > > I also disagree completely with every criticism that Karl Auerbach
> came
> > >  > > up with.  His objections are completely without support and his
> method
> > >  > > of running a list would result in complete chaos.  If he wants that
> kind
> > >  > > of list, he can just subscribe to (and archive) the ga-unfiltered
> list.
> > >  >
> > >  > Our disagreement is about which list is the "official" one.
> > >
> > > No.  You wish to wallow in the childish and disruptive behavior of
> > > things like the so-called jeff williams multiple-personality disorder
> > > and I do not.
> >
> > If you don't like somebody's postings then you can filter them yourself.
> >
> > What you are doing is imposing your censorship on others.
> >
> > You have the power to keep Jeff W. and Joe B. out of your mailbox.  If you
> > need the procmail filters to do this, just ask, several of us have 'em.
> >
> > You fail to use the tools that have been provided and, instead, want to
> > impose your choices on the rest of us.
> >
> > >  > The all encompassing one, the one without filters, the one with
> > >  > submissions from all parties, ought to be the full record.
> > >
> > > What purpose does is serve to archive the obscene ranting of the insane
> > > canadian joe baptista?  His libelous and slanderous postings have served
> > > no purpose other than to inhibit productive discussions from occuring.
> >
> > There's no disagreement that their postings are usually pretty awful,
> > but not always.  The discussion here is whether those of us who wish
> > to see those postings can do so.
> >
> > If you believe that the postings are defamatory, then I suggest to you
> > that there are laws on defamation available to those who feel wronged.
> > If you fail to use the tools that have been made available to you to
> > redress wrongs, you won't get any sympathy from me when you whine
> > about your pain.
> >
> > >  > Censorship is censorship.  The GA can't claim to be open while
> censoring
> > >  > comment.  Well, it can claim to be open, but it would be an overt
> > >  > falsehood.
> > >
> > > Censorship in the United States is defined by the government restricting
> > > the rights of free expression.  When a private company (e.g., ICANN)
> > > wishes to carry on a productive discussion, it has every right to insist
> > > on minimum rules for civility and decorum.
> >
> > Two points:
> >
> > 1. ICANN is not completely private, it operates as a California Public
> > Benefit corporation, notice the word "public".  ICANN also obtains its
> > power over DNS by virtue of a contract from the US Department of
> > Commerce.  As such ICANN is constrained.
> >
> > 2. Even in private contexts, censorship is censorship, discrimination
> > is discrimination, a wrong is still a wrong.
> >
> >
> > > I, for one, do not wish to
> > > be subjected to the childish and unproductive antics of such entities as
> > > those who identify themselves as the so-called jeff williams and joe
> > > baptista
> >
> > You have the power to filter those people your self.  Here's a snippet
> > from my .procmailrc file - it sends things from Jeff Williams into a
> > special mailbox that I can read or not read.
> >
> > Don't use your own inability to apply tools as an argument to force
> > the rest of us to wear your own blinders.
> >
> > :0:
> > * ^From:.*Jeff Williams
> > IN.jw
> >
> > :0:
> > * ^From:.*jwkckid1@IX.NETCOM.COM
> > IN.jw
> >
> >
> > > ... but I prefer a forum which enforces civil
> > > rules of behavior.
> >
> > Then you ought to create your own derivative list that filters out the
> > dirt and grime of real life.  You have the ability to do that; if you
> > don't know how, just ask, several of us can help you do it.
> >
> >
> > > The so-called "official" record of all government bodies has always been
> > > edited after the fact to correspond to rules of civil behavior (striking
> > > remarks from the record, etc.)
> >
> > You have an odd notion of a "record" and a perception that seems more
> > in accord with the practices of a Stalinst era Soviet than with an
> > Internet regulatory body.
> >
> >
> > > There is nothing unofficial about the
> > > proposed ga archived list being closed in any sense.  Anyone who has a
> > > desire to participate in an open, spirited, productive debate is welcome
> > > to join in.  Anyone who wishes to act childishly and disruptive is asked
> > > to take their grandstanding and tantrum-throwing elsewhere.
> >
> > And you are saying that you get to make the choice about who fits in which
> category.
> >
> > Sorry, but I flatly reject you or anybody else telling me what material is
> > constructive and what is disruptive.  You make your own choice, I'll make
> mine.
> >
> > And when you use censorship to manipulate the record so that a
> > subsequent reviewer or historian can not find all the statements, then
> > what you have done is nothing but creation of an approved official
> > history.
> >
> > --karl--
> >
> >
> >
> >

Regards,
--
Jeffrey A. Williams
Spokesman INEGroup (Over 95k members strong!)
CEO/DIR. Internet Network Eng/SR. Java/CORBA Development Eng.
Information Network Eng. Group. INEG. INC.
E-Mail jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com
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