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Re: [ga] Bulk WHOIS Data Issue

I knew all that, but the point remains and, incidentally, it was not
narrowly focused on DMV information, either.

The point was, and is, that there is much more information already
readily available from other sources. If a criminal wants to find out
your address, there are plenty of ways for that to be achieved. I
seriously doubt that a criminal would use the whois, since there is
much more information available elsewhere.

Incidentally, do you really believe that a criminal is going to comply
with the restrictions imposed by publicdata.com or just agree to them
on-line and do whatever he wishes? Heck, if hanging out some rules
makes a difference, then I'm compelled to hang on the doors and windows
of my house all the rules for entry -- like, for instance, you can't
rob us... That would save me over $100 year for the burglar alarm
service and, I'm sure, it would make my wife sleep much easier, too.
The point is, obviously, the restrictions don't hold water - even the
DMV information is readily available to anyone who agrees to the

Worrying about the limited scope of whois information doesn't even
rise to the level of treating the symptoms, rather than treating the
disease, like Congress did when they passed the DPPA. The Whois
information is trivial and it is needed by ISP's to serve their
customers, among other things.

Want to find out my address?  Just goto
http://www.dalcoelections.org/voters.asp and type in Brown, Donald.
I'm the real one - the rest are imposters. :-) Not only do you get the
street address, but also a convenient map.

Do you want to know who lives at a certain address in Dallas and the
appraised value of their house? Just goto
http://www.dallascad.org/dcadressearch.html and just enter a street
name -- try clubhouse. It returns appraised value, address, owner name
and the actual address of the owner even when different from the
property address and, incidentally, also a convenient map to the
property -- plus other info, as well.

How about, who owns a certain telephone number and their address?
There a plenty of search engines readily available on the Internet. I
use them all the time in an effort to verify credit card information,
in fact.

This whole thing reminds me of the of those radical, separationist,
paramilitary types who are camped out in the woods, with a stock pile
of food, a deep bomb shelter and are training for the time they have
to fight the U.S. Gov for their continued freedom. Mostly
under-educated, but righteous and focused, never-the-less.

Realistically, you were neither stalked or had your identity stolen
because of the whois data.  That was noise and sensationalism.  I
think it is a real stretch making whois info sensational, too.  You
didn't state that specifically, but it was, never-the-less, an
implication.  It has no merit WRT this discussion, either.

It's shooting mosquitos with double 00 buck shot and it's misplaced
WRT the trivial whois data.

I respect your opinion, but just like the last post, this post did not
meaningfully support it very well.

Let's move on.


Sunday, April 21, 2002, 4:56:45 PM, Jeff Williams <jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
JW> Don and all assembly members,

JW>   Yes Don I am a registered member/user of http://www.publicdata.com
JW> and have been for some time now.  However if you read the specifics
JW> and than check with Texas state statute very strong restrictions are
JW> in place for Texas as well as 10 other states.  See:
JW> http://www.publicdata.com/cgi-win/logon.exe?Process=tacDsply&tacCert=DMV&tacState=Yd&tacCntl=E&dlnumber=DEMO&dlstate=DEMO&id=DEMO#DPPA
JW> Which contains but is not restricted to the following:

JW> "Driver's License and Motor Vehicle Information Restrictions -
JW>      Most States in the United States have adopted a close facsimile of the so-called Driver Privacy Protection Act (DPPA). Although two U.S. Federal Judges
JW>      have ruled the DPPA to be unconstitutional and many other court challenges are still pending, most States have left their interpretation of the DPPA as
JW>      Law. The DPPA has a list of exceptions that fits most uses of Driver's License and Motor Vehicle Information. If your use is described by one of the
JW>      following, you are more than likely in compliance with this Law, but please check to make sure. Approved uses as described by the DPPA:

JW>      Select one of the following radio buttons to indicate your compliance with that particular section of the DPPA.

JW>          1. For any use in the normal course of business by me as a legitimate business or an agent, employee, or contractor of a legitimate business, for
JW>           one of the two following purposes:
JW>                to verify the accuracy of personal information submitted to the business, agent, employee, or contractor by an individual;
JW>                in case personal information submitted to the business, agent, employee, or contractor by an individual is incorrect or no longer is correct,
JW>                to obtain the correct information, for the sole purpose of preventing fraud, by pursuing legal remedies against, or recovering on a debt or
JW>                security interest against, the individual.
JW>          2. For any use if the requesting person has written consent of the person about whom the information is sought;
JW>          3. For any use in research activities or in producing statistical reports, where the personal information will not be published re-disclosed, or used
JW>           to contact an individual;
JW>          4. For any use by an insurer, insurance support organization, or self-insured entity, or by an agent, employee, or contractor of that type of entity,
JW>           in connection with a claims investigation activity, anti-fraud activity, rating, or underwriting;
JW>          5. For use in providing notice to the owner of a towed, impounded, immobilized, or forfeited vehicle;
JW>          6. For use by a licensed private investigative agency or licensed security service for any purpose permitted under the DPPA
JW>          7. For any use by an employer or by the agent or insurer of an employer to obtain or verify information relating to the holder of a commercial
JW>           driver license or permit that is required under the "Commercial Motor Vehicle Safety Act of 1986" as now or hereafter amended;
JW>          8. For any use in connection with the operation of a private toll transportation facility;
JW>          9.Note: This sub-section has been dropped from the Driver Privacy Protection Act.
JW>           For bulk distribution for surveys, marketing, or solicitations, where the information will be used, rented, or sold solely for bulk distribution for surveys,
JW>           marketing, or solicitations;
JW>         10. For the use of a government agency, including, but not limited to, a court or law enforcement agency, in carrying out its functions, or for the
JW>           use of a private person or entity acting on behalf of an agency of this state, another state, the United States, or a political subdivision of this state
JW>           or another state in carrying out its functions;
JW>         11. For any use in connection with a civil, criminal, administrative, or arbitral proceeding in a court or agency of a state, the United States, or a
JW>           political subdivision of a state or before a self-regulatory body, including, but not limited to, use in connection with the service of process,
JW>           investigation in anticipation of litigation, or the execution or enforcement of a judgment or order;
JW>         12. For any use pursuant to an order of a court of a state, the United States, or a political subdivision of any state;
JW>         13. For any other use specifically authorized by law that is related to the operation of a motor vehicle or to public safety;
JW>         14. For any use in connection with matters regarding motor vehicle or driver safety and theft; motor vehicle emissions; motor vehicle product
JW>           alterations, recalls, or advisories; performance monitoring of motor vehicles, motor vehicle parts, and dealers; motor vehicle market research
JW>           activities, including, but not limited to, survey research; and removal of non-owner records from the original owner records of motor vehicle
JW>           manufacturers;
JW>         15. For any use in order to carry out the purposes of either the "Automobile Information Disclosure Act", the "Motor Vehicle Information and Cost
JW>           Saving Act", the "National Traffic and Motor Vehicle Safety Act of 1966", the "Anti-Car Theft Act of 1992", or the "Clean Air Act", all as now or
JW>           hereafter amended, for use in connection with one or more of the following matters:
JW>                motor vehicle or driver safety and theft;
JW>                motor vehicle emissions;
JW>                motor vehicle product alterations, recalls, or advisories;
JW>                performance monitoring of motor vehicles and dealers by motor vehicle manufacturers;
JW>                removal of non-owner records from the original owner records of motor vehicle manufacturers."

JW> Hence Don, my previous comments in brief on previous posts on this thread..

JW> Don Brown wrote:

>> For an example of what I was talking about, see
>> http://www.publicdata.com/ and click on the current database
>> offerings.  You will find a db for Driver's License, License Plates,
>> Vehicle Identification Number, Voter Registration, Real Estate.  The
>> DMV information is subject to the terms and conditions, which are
>> restrictive, but they do not require the user to be a Peace Officer,
>> as was stated.
>> With respect to real estate, go to this URL
>> http://www.dallascad.org/dcadressearch.html
>> and just enter the street name of clubhouse.
>> Public information, such as what I mentioned in this and the prior
>> post, is generally available to the public. There are some
>> restrictions (the driver's Privacy Protection Act, for one) imposed
>> upon its use in certain cases.
>> I do agree that some of the information is subject to restricted
>> use and that some of the information is not uniformly available.
>> However, that doesn't equate to being "way off base."
>> It is difficult to comprehend how one's identity could be stolen through
>> the use of the current whois data.  There is no more information in
>> the current whois than is available from a telephone book, Church
>> directory, neighborhood directory, or voter registration databases,
>> ( see http://www.dalcoelections.org/voters.asp ).  In fact, the voter
>> registration and real estate links cited above, even include a map.
>> I am, however, aware of a few stalking incidents due to the publicly
>> available whois data.  The perpetrators were VeriSign, Register.com, Domain
>> Registry of America, Domain Registry of Canada and others, who did
>> their stalking by mailing a solicitation, which appeared to be an
>> invoice, for the renewal of domain names.
>> Again, I don't consider the publication of whois information as any
>> real transgression of privacy and confidentiality or that it
>> potentially exposes one to life threatening criminal activity.  I
>> respect your opinion to the contrary, even though your post did not
>> meaningfully support it very well."

>> Sunday, April 21, 2002, 12:37:24 AM, Jeff Williams <jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>> JW> Don and all assembly members,
>> JW> Don Brown wrote:
>> >> O.K.  Let's see.  If you have the license plate number, you can look
>> >> up the owner.
>> JW>   Not in Texas unless you are a member of law enforcement and have
>> JW> a need to know, such as a potential traffic violation in progress, ect...
>> JW> Same in California, Oklahoma, Nebraska, Kansas, Missouri,
>> JW> Georgia, and I believe also Nevada.
>> >>  If you have the driver license number, you can look up
>> >> the owner.
>> JW>   Again not in Texas or California unless you are a member of law
>> JW> enforcement without the drivers license holders expressed written
>> JW> permission.
>> >>  If you have the property address, you can look up the
>> >> owner.
>> JW>   Again not true in 11 states, including Texas in some instances...
>> >>  I'm not totally sure about SS number, but I wouldn't doubt if
>> >> a database is available on the net, as well.  If you have the phone
>> >> number, even in some cases where they have not opted in, in TX, you can
>> >> look up the owner.
>> JW>   Yes in some states this is true.  In many countries it is not true...
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Are we getting bundled up in our socks over the confidentiality of the
>> >> Registrant of a domain name?  Really?  Well, let's not.
>> JW>   I respectfully disagree.  I am not interested in again going to court
>> JW> over identity theft like I had to do in 1989.  I am not interested in having
>> JW> myself or my daughters stalked due to some "Control Freak" Nut Job
>> JW> looking up on WHOIS my name and finding personal private information
>> JW> listed for me to make such a situation much easier for that "Control Freak"
>> JW> Nut Job to do...
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Is this other information comparable to the available information
>> >> about the registrant of a domain name?
>> JW>   No it is not..  (See above again)
>> >> Is the Pope Catholic?
>> JW>   No he is Polish.  >;)
>> >> Of course
>> >> it is!  It is, indeed, the same kind of personal information one would
>> >> find about the owner of a license plate, driver license, etc.
>> JW>   Again not correct Don.  See above...  See state statutes for Texas,
>> JW> California, Georgia, Nebraska, Kansas, Missouri, ect, ect...
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> However, my registration of a domain name is one heck of a lot more
>> >> trivial than my license plate, driver license, social security number
>> >> or the appraised value (yep, that's there, too) of my property.
>> JW>   But neither the license plate, driver license, social security number
>> JW> are as easily accessible as a Whois listing by name or Domain Name.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I think some are hunting mosquitos with 00 buck shot rather than
>> >> living in the real world. There is no confidentially issue here which
>> >> will harelip the Governor, so let's move on.
>> JW>   Well Don you wayyy off base.  Again see above...  <sigh>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Saturday, April 20, 2002, 6:26:27 PM, Cade,Marilyn S - LGA <mcade@att.com> wrote:
>> >> CMSL> Jeff, do elaborate on the differences on what is listed in a "white pages" listing and WHOIS.
>> >>
>> >> CMSL> In white pages, name, address and telephone number is the typical listing. [unless there is an opt out, or situation Jeff described for Texas which requires opt in].
>> >>
>> >> CMSL> What is the difference with WHOIS listings?
>> >>
>> >> CMSL> -----Original Message-----
>> >> CMSL> From: Jeff Williams [mailto:jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com]
>> >> CMSL> Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2002 8:25 PM
>> >> CMSL> To: Cade,Marilyn S - LGA
>> >> CMSL> Cc: ga@dnso.org; Alexander Svensson; Dan Halloran; Louis Touton; Mike
>> >> CMSL> Palage; Antonio Harris; icann board address
>> >> CMSL> Subject: Re: [ga] Bulk WHOIS Data Issue
>> >>
>> >> CMSL> Marilyn and all assembly members,
>> >>
>> >> CMSL>   Your of course very welcome Marilyn.  It is very important that
>> >> CMSL> accurate information is decimated when making such comments
>> >> CMSL> or statements.
>> >>
>> >> CMSL>   In any event comparisons of a phone # listing and private information
>> >> CMSL> listed in WHOIS data are not really comparable, and therefore making
>> >> CMSL> such comparisons is felonious at best.  Same of course is true with
>> >> CMSL> property ownership listings.  Apples and tomatoes...
>> >>
>> >> CMSL> Cade,Marilyn S - LGA wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >> Jeff, thanks for  providing more accurate information about a practice in one state at least.  I wasn't aware of that but I am sure that residents of Texas appreciate it!  Marilyn

JW> -snip old stuff for posting size limit -

JW> Regards,
JW> --
JW> Jeffrey A. Williams
JW> Spokesman for INEGroup - (Over 121k members/stakeholdes strong!)
JW> CEO/DIR. Internet Network Eng/SR. Java/CORBA Development Eng.
JW> Information Network Eng. Group. INEG. INC.
JW> E-Mail jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com
JW> Contact Number:  972-244-3801 or 214-244-4827
JW> Address: 5 East Kirkwood Blvd. Grapevine Texas 75208

Don Brown - Dallas, Texas USA     Internet Concepts, Inc.
donbrown_l@inetconcepts.net         http://www.inetconcepts.net
PGP Key ID: 04C99A55              (972) 788-2364  Fax: (972) 788-5049
Providing Internet Solutions Worldwide - An eDataWeb Affiliate

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